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lay people getting enlightened,
Nirvana: "Is there such a thing as wind?" "Of course there is," came
the reply. "What is its color, its shape, its thickness?" "It has
no color or shape or thickness." "Can one touch it and can it be shown?"
"No, it cannot be touched and it cannot be shown." "If it cannot be
shown, how do you know it exists?" "I am positive it exists, even
if it cannot be seen." "Nirvana is like that," the disciple replied.
"It cannot be touched, or seen. But we are positive it exists."
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